Windustry Forum
Wind Farmers Network    Wind Farmers Network Forum  Hop To Forum Categories  General Items  Hop To Forums  Expert Q & A    December's Featured Expert: Trudy Forsyth, Small Wind Turbines
Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
-star Rating Rate It!  Login/Join 
Administrator
Windbag
Picture of Brian Antonich
Posted

Wind Farmers Network's Expert Q&A Session #4: Small Wind Turbines

Background:
The Wind Farmers Network hosts a series of Expert Question and Answer sessions. This is your opportunity to to have your questions answered by wind energy experts from various branches of the wind industry.  So go wild ask away.

Our current topic:
To kick off Windustry's new Small Wind Program we have an expert on small wind turbine technology, testing, and distributed wind policy/markets to answer your questions about small wind energy systems.
 
 
Meet Trudy Forsyth:
Trudy Forsyth has been working for National Renewable Energy Laboratory as a Senior Project Leader in Small Wind Energy Research and Development since 1994.  She has a masters degree in Mechanical Engineering from University of Colorado and over the past 11 years has worked with several small wind turbine manufacturers on advanced small turbine design, building of and testing new prototypes.  She has been the Department of Energy Golden Field Office liaison and coordinator of National Renewable Energy Laboratory technical support for the Small Wind Turbine Field Verification Project where she has been involved in testing small wind turbines against International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC) standards.  Ms. Forsyth has helped write various publications on small wind turbines, from IEC technical standards to the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA) Small Wind Turbine Industry Roadmap and has presented, under the Wind Powering America program, small wind turbine technical and state policy/market information to wind audiences throughout the US.

The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) is the nation's primary laboratory for renewable energy and energy efficiency research and development.  Established in 1974, NREL has wind energy facilities testing turbine gear boxes, blades, and performance as well as 8 research turbines in the field.  For more information about NREL link to: National Renewable Energy Laboratory.
 
Trudy looks forward to answering your questions about small wind technology, small wind testing, and distributed wind policy and markets. In the event a question is presented she can not answer, she will utilize her colleagues within the NREL Wind Technology Center to provide you with a comprehensive answer. 
 
Please submit your questions to Trudy using this link: info@windfarmersnetwork.org.
 
The deadline for submitting questions is Wednesday, December 14th, 2005.  Answers will be posted on the Wind Farmers Network around January 20th, 2006.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Brian Antonich,


Brian Antonich
Small Wind Program Analyst
612-870-3465
brian@windustry.org
www.windustry.org
 
Posts: 113 | Location: Minneapolis, MN | Registered: 16 September 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Calm
Posted Hide Post
quote:
whirlwind

quote:
whirlwind

To Dale Eastman,
I have the information you are looking for. I own the very first 48V 2KW whirlwind that Elliot Baily made (by request) and have the owners manual.
I bought this machine in 1986 and it still works great.
 
Posts: 2 | Location: Kenai peninsula | Registered: 23 February 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Light
Picture of nabil
Posted Hide Post
My question is concerning the purchase of a suitable Anemometer and data recording equipment. I searched and found a company out of Germany but they have been fairly unresponsive to my requests for price sheets, ect. Any good semi-local places to get measuring equipment suitable for small/large scale wind measurement and recording?
Thanks,
Nabil


Nabil Amra
 
Posts: 3 | Location: minneapolis | Registered: 24 March 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
+-
Calm
Posted Hide Post
Hi Trudy -

Just reading through all of the Small Wind Turbine Q & A and wanted to bring to the group a bit of the resource assessment side of the equation.

Whether looking to develop or commercial-scale windfarm, or a smaller, residential wind turbine for home energy production, in most cases, assessment of the resourcement is worthwhile.

NRG Systems WindWatcher is NRG's low-cost instrument specifically tailored for those thinking about the viability of a small wind turbine installation at their home or business.

For more information:
http://www.nrgsystems.com/store/product_detail.php?cd=10&s=3392

Enjoyed all of the information exchanged thus far - I especially appreciated the digest of small wind turbine manufactures for Shuman Moore as I receive frequent inquiries on this subject.

Thanks!

David Simkins
NRG Systems Inc.
Sales Representative - US Accounts


David Simkins
NRG Sales - US Accounts

NRG Systems - Global leaders in advanced wind energy technologies.
 
Posts: 1 | Registered: 16 September 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Administrator
Windbag
Picture of Brian Antonich
Posted Hide Post
Wind farmers Network Expert Q

Wind farmers Network Expert Q&A #4:

Trudy Forsyth and Small Wind Turbines 

Brian,

Thanks for the opportunity to answer questions from interested folks and the opportunity to hear those questions, since I’m always wanting to better understand consumers perspectives.  I want to thank several of my colleagues who have helped me answer these questions, Tony Jimenez, Dale Berg, Woody Stoddard, Sandy Butterfield and Tami Sandberg.

I suspect that there may be follow on questions to some of my answers and I would be happy to help you answer those questions.  I’ve included each question here in italics and then responded after the question.

I wish everyone good luck in their wind turbine projects!  As a colleague of mine says, Carpe Ventem or seize the wind.

Trudy Forsyth

************************************************

Janeen Norstegaard

Sturgis, SD

We are building as approximate 2500 sq ft home on the prairie outside of Sturgis, SD.  We plan to incorporate wind as a supplement to supplying our energy needs.  What would you recommend?

Janeen,

The answer to your question is the same answer we give to a lot of folks, it depends.  For example, will your house be off-grid or on-grid?

Before continuing I want to make my standard plug for energy efficiency.  I don’t know how far along you are in building your house, but to the extent possible, make it energy efficient.  It’s much cheaper to build in energy efficiency house at the start rather than retrofit later.  Energy efficiency is especially important if your house will be off-grid.  It’s much cheaper to build to minimize your electric load than it is to buy a larger stand alone energy system.

First, you want to evaluate your property to determine if it is feasible to site a wind turbine.  Ideally, your lot is at least one acre in size with good exposure to the wind. 

A related consideration is tower height.  Generally, the higher the better.  Wind speed tends to increase with height, so the taller the tower, the greater the wind speed that your turbine will “see”.  Due to the cubic dependence between wind power and wind speed, even small increases in wind speed yield large increases in the power of the wind.  For example, an increase of 10% in wind speed will cause the power in the wind to increase by over 30%.  Ideally, your turbine should be 30 feet higher than any other objects (trees & buildings) within 500 feet.  This will position the turbine above the turbulence caused by these objects.  

If you are off-grid your best course of action, after reducing your load with energy efficiency measures, depends partly on what is most important to you.  Do you want to minimize cost?  Do you refuse to use a generator?

Most off-grid homes in the U.S. that use wind turbines combine them with photovoltaic panels, batteries, and a generator.  These hybrid systems are often a lower cost option than a grid extension or running a generator 24/7.  With a hybrid system the generator typically runs a few 10s to a few 100s of hours per year.  You can dispense with the generator by either oversizing the renewable energy part of the system or at the risk of occasionally doing without electricity.

If your house will be on-grid, then what you do depends on your personal preference and how much money you are willing to spend on the wind turbine.  You can get a small turbine that meets a small portion of your load, or a larger turbine that meets a large portion of your load.  In general there isn’t much point in buying a turbine that will produce significantly more electricity (on an annual basis) than what you consume. 

Typical turbine sizes for residences range from 1 kW to 10 kW.  Unless your house is very efficient, you’ll need a turbine in the upper end of that range to produce an amount of electricity equal to all or most of your load.  Assuming your site is reasonably windy and has good exposure, you can expect a turbine capacity factor (CF) in the range of 10%-20%.  The CF will be below that range if your wind resource is poor and higher than the range if your wind resource is really good.  Your annual energy production is then the turbine size (rated power) x capacity factor x 8760 hours per year.  Thus the annual production of a 10 kW turbine with a 15% capacity factor is: 10 kW x 0.15 x 8760 hours/year = 13,100 kWh year.

Note that capacity factors for small wind turbines are generally lower than the capacity factors for large wind turbines because; 1) small turbines are placed on shorter towers, and 2) small turbines tend to be located in less windy areas.

The economics of grid-tied wind systems are most affected by:

1) Wind resource

2) The availability of incentives: see http://www.dsireusa.org/

According to the South Dakota wind map the Sturgis area has class 3 and class 4 winds, which are more than adequate for small wind turbines.

Even with a good wind resource, without incentives the payback period for small wind turbines tends to be long, generally over 15 years.  Unfortunately, South Dakota’s only incentive, a three-year property tax exemption on renewable energy equipment, is relatively minor.

A final consideration is the availability of net metering.  Turbine production is often not matched to consumption.  As the turbine size increases relative to the load, the turbine will more often produce more electricity than the house needs.  This excess electricity will go back to the grid.  As turbine size increases a larger fraction of overall turbine production that will go to the grid. 

If your utility does not offer net metering, you will have two meters.  One meter will measure incoming electrons for which you will pay your regular retail rate.  The other meter will measure the electricity that you send to grid.  For this outgoing electricity your utility will pay you a wholesale or avoided cost, which is lower than the retail rate.  It is important to understand that this lower rate applies only to electrons sent to the grid.  Wind generated electricity that you use on-site is worth full retail value because they are displacing electrons you would otherwise buy from the utility.  In the situation where you don’t have net metering, it may be financially advantageous to go with an undersized turbine, compared to your consumption, so that most of the production is used on-site and valued at the retail rate.

Net metering replaces two meters with one meter.  When your system is producing more electricity than you are consuming, the meter will spin backwards.  Thus the financial value of all electrons produced by the wind turbine is full retail rate.  This is true unless the overall production of the wind turbine during the “true-up” period (typically monthly or annually) is greater than your overall consumption.  Typically the “net-excess” electricity is sold at a lower rate or given to the utility.  Net metering allows a homeowner to size the wind turbine closer to their home’s consumption without financial penalty.

Unfortunately, South Dakota has no net metering law or regulation, so chances are your utility does not offer net metering.

For a partial listing of available turbines and general pricing, see my answer to Shuman Moore’s question.

************************************************

Dennis Keim

Lincoln, Nebraska

Okay, Trudy.  Try one or all of these.  (Just for fun.  <g>)

Whatever happened to the extremely low solidity two-bladed Gale wind turbines that were being developed by the Fel-Pro gasket people?

What was the very appropriate name of Herman Drees' dog when he was developing the Cycloturbine on Cape Cod in the late 1970s?

Which wind system used tip drags for rotor control first?   (Ventimotor, Gedser or Enertech)

Dennis,

I didn’t know the answers to these questions myself but I asked a friend and colleague, Woody Stoddard.  He had all the answers as he usually does and had a reference for the answers to 2/3 of these questions and offered a question back to you.  But first, I will give his answers.

1)    Ernie Rogers who worked on early small turbine designs decided to build a low solidity, low Reynolds number turbine, called the Gale.  At the time he worked for Fel-Pro gasket company and built one prototype turbine.  Ernie actually consulted with Woody on computer codes that he could use to help him design these low Reynold’s number blades.

2)    Herman Drees’ dog’s name was Rotor.  (At least that’s what Woody and Sandy recollect.)

3)    There were actually several early turbines that used tip drags for rotor control.  The first was Louis Vadot who designed yet never built the Ventimotor.  This was a French design.  The second company was Russian and they designed and built a turbine with tip drags, starting with a fixed pitch turbine design and later changing that to a variable pitch design.  One of these 100 kW turbines was used in Yalta for mining salt.  The third turbine design was the Gedser, which was designed and built pre-World War II.  And then of course the Enertech turbine used tip plates or brakes and there were a number of those turbines built and sold in the US when there was a federal tax program for renewables.

Now, here’s a question for you.  From a physics perspective, is it possible to run a windmill with a hollow blade and use centrifugal force that pushes air out the blade to produce power?

Thanks for the questions, finding the answers was quite enjoyable.

************************************************

Dale Eastman

I am looking for any information that anyone can give me concerning whirlwind generators.  I need wiring diagrams, or anything would be helpful. I have a unit that is about 20 years old.  Thank you in advance. 

Dale,

Whirlwind generators were designed under the early Rockwell days (late 70s and early 80s) and at that time turbines were viewed to be successful if they survived one of our big windstorms.  And needless to say all of the turbines failed during our notorious 100+ mph winds.  The Whirlwind was one of those turbines, Elliott Bayly was the inventor of the turbine.  He started a company called World Power Technology located in Duluth, MN and went on to design the Whisper turbine products that are still on the market today.

We have some pages from those early Rockwell reports showing the turbine specifications at that time but my best advice would be to contact Elliott Bayly in Duluth and ask him for wiring diagrams.  Another thought would be to contact the AWEA wind-home page, awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com and ask the membership the same question.  There are numerous experts and folks who want to be experts participating in that forum and many of them like the use of old turbines that can still be used.

Let me know if you want me to send you those pages on the Whirlwind from the early Rockwell reports.

************************************************

Bob Meyerson 

Thanks for the service.

(1) What questions would you ask to choose between different manufacturers? different contractors? 

(2) How would you size your turbine?

(3) What would you consider a reasonable delevery time from the date you sign a check for the machine?

Bob, 

These are excellent questions and due to the market growth in small wind systems, there are new turbines for sale with new installers.  Because the market is so strong, there is reason for buyers to beware when buying turbines and having people install these systems.

Let me start by saying, I’ve looked at numerous turbine designs on paper but the ultimate judge is how does the machine perform in the field.  Ideally there would be independent turbine testing for all the turbine products available in the US and while there is a move afoot to do just that, at this time there are not many independently verified turbines.  Regardless, I would still ask the manufacturer who has tested their turbine, how long the turbine ran and in what types of winds.  Also how long has the manufacturer been producing turbines and where have they been installed?  Is there a warranty for the turbine product and how many units have been sent back to the factory under this warranty agreement?

For the contractors, I assume you mean the people who do the installation of the turbine system.  At this point there is no formal installer certification but there are some installer training programs. (There is a move afoot to have NABCEP certify wind installers but it will take a while to develop the certification program.)  Many of the installer training programs are offered by turbine manufacturers or institutes that have been working in the wind field.  Examples of organizations that offer wind installer training include: Midwest Renewable Energy Association, Solar Energy International, Cape & Islands Self Reliance Corporation, Appalachian State University, etc.  (I’m sure there are others who will soon let me know about their training programs.)

You should also check with the Better Business Bureau in your state to find out if there is any information about the installer.

Turbine size – This all depends on the policies that exist for your state and utility.  The best source of incentive policy information is at www.dsireusa.org.  If you have a policy such as net metering in MN with a 40 kW capacity limit and a payment of the average retail rate for any excess generation, you may want to put up a larger turbine than will meet your load.  But typically you want to install a turbine that will meet about 75 – 80% of your own load.  The reason is that when you produce kWh that you consume, those kWhs have a value of the retail rate that you pay for your electricity.  If you get a turbine larger than what can meet your own needs, than typically you will get the avoided cost or the wholesale rate for those kWhs.

A reasonable time for delivery of a turbine system would be no later than 6 months and this will vary.  The small wind manufacturers have gone from having turbines ready to ship out the door once payment has been made, to having a delay in shipment after payment due to surges in the marketplace.  The small wind manufacturers have a specific number of turbines they can produce in their facility’s, there are times when market demand exceeds their production levels.  I’d ask the installer, dealer, distributor or manufacturer what lead time you should expect.

************************************************

Tony Mancuso
Duluth
, MN

and

Kenneth Milhouse

I feel there is a huge opportunity for renewable (very small wind) for home owners that just hasn't blossomed. The average citizen - living in higher density population areas just cannot tap into wind (other than the green energy purchase offer from utilities). A 10 foot turbine is not practical or acceptable for 99% of the residents, but if very small 100 to 400 watt grid tied units could be used - it would open a whole new renewable niche - not for everyone, but there is a heck of a lot of potential with small, quite, and safe machines.

My question is: why are there no small "utility tied" inverter available on the market? The smallest one available is 700 watts, but the unit to power that is still physically too large for urban applications. Do you know if there is any movement toward small roof mounted wind units (not going to bother my neighbor) - grid tied systems?

Tony and Kenneth,

You are absolutely right that urban dwellers can’t easily benefit from the use of small turbines.  This has been true for a number of years and consequently in the 1990s turbine manufacturers focused on the international market, which was for battery-charging turbines.  These turbines need an inverter to change their output to be compatible to the utility grid. Incidentally small turbines produce “wild AC”, variable frequency, variable voltage electricity that needs to be converted to standard 60 Hz AC.  And while there are numerous small inverters/converters for photovoltaics, the voltage variation for small turbines require a much more robust converter type of product, this is part of the challenge.

You bring up a valid point about the lack of small wind utility-tied inverters.  The lack of good utility-tied inverters has been a technical stumbling block for the US marketplace.  And recently, there have begun to be significant incentives in the US marketplace for grid-connected wind turbines.  As a result, there is more interest in using small turbines in urban settings.

We do not advocate the use of small turbines on roof tops due to their variable speed nature and their potential to cause resonance or vibrations that are not tolerated well by humans.  So at present there is no real answer to your problem.  There is a consideration for the use of small vertical axis wind turbines (VAWTs) to be compatible with roof-mounted installations.  However, until those systems are tested, I can’t say that they are or are not the solution to your question.  In time, more research and testing can be done using these small VAWTs on roofs and from those data, the technical community will be in a better position to answer these questions.  

 
Posts: 113 | Location: Minneapolis, MN | Registered: 16 September 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
 Previous Topic | Next Topic powered by eve community Page 1 2  
 

Wind Farmers Network    Wind Farmers Network Forum  Hop To Forum Categories  General Items  Hop To Forums  Expert Q & A    December's Featured Expert: Trudy Forsyth, Small Wind Turbines